Talk:Smaug
Smaug is a Complete Monster Figured this discussion should happen here so as to avoid an Edit War. Smaug is a Complete Monster. His crimes include torching an inhabited city, stealing all it's wealth, and driving out the Dwarves and forcing them to scrape a miserable existence elsewhere. And then, one one measly cup (that wasn't even his to begin with) is taken from him he tries to completely destroy ANOTHER inhabited town. It's arguably even worse in the movie where he deliberately sets out to raze the town just to spite Bilbo and hurt him because he knows Bilbo cares about Dale's people. Now granted, none of this measures up to Sauron, but here's the thing: Sauron had a level of power and resources Smaug never did, and was also active for longer. Smaug did not have the means or page-time to rack up the same bodycount. But he was as bad as he possibly could be. Smaug is a Complete Monster. No ifs, ands. or buts. Overseer80 (talk) 01:22, March 27, 2014 (UTC) I say he isn't. He's a dragon. That behavior would come naturally to him, and from what I see he came to Erebor to steal the treasure, because, well, he's a dragon. He's greedy. Now, that's not sympathetic at all, and frankly rather horrible, but all the other causes for it are unexplained. He's greedy because it's natural. Then there's the issue of what he did for 200 years: sleep and do nothing. He wasn't out for genocide, he wasn't out to murder people, (until Bilbo came, and even that's limited to the move) he didn't want to take over the world, he just ravaged a city and slept on a pile of treasure for a century or two. He didn't do anything in that time space. He fails to be active enough to reach the heights needed to be a CM, and in the book proper the worst thing he did was attack Rivertown. Same thing he did to Erebor. "He was as bad as he possibly could be" doesn't mean anything here because the worst thing he did was raze a couple cities (again, that's horrid, but nowhere near the heights of Tolkien's other villains) in his screentime before being shot dead by Bard. His Disproportionate Retribution is evil, but again, if Bilbo hadn't have come along in the first place, he never would have got off his ass to begin with. Now, yes, he is more evil in the movie due to the fact he's intentionally scorning Bilbo, but even in the tedious length of the movie the very same things apply to him, and he isn't evil enough just by that. Taking all this down a notch, I don't think Smaug is a CM because his actions are too few and too far between to count as being heinous enough to be a Monster, and there's still the issue that he does nothing between that. I've said my word. ...Now I'll remove the Monster category again, because clearly I don't know any better than to continue this edit war. [[User:LostGod2000|'THE DREADED']][[User talk:LostGod2000|''' ONE AWAKENS ]] 03:34, March 27, 2014 (UTC) I also said nothing about greed and revenge being sympathetic motivations. Greed I explained above and as far as I know revenge is not a driving factor on his part. [[User:LostGod2000|'''THE DREADED]][[User talk:LostGod2000|''' ONE AWAKENS ]] 03:36, March 27, 2014 (UTC) I don't think so. Your argument doesn't work to me. Saying "he's dragon, of course he'd be greedy" is like saying Freddy Kruegar or Joker gets a pass because of course they'll be homicidal and bloodthirsty, they're psychopaths. So that "it's just his nature" argument doesn't work. As to just lounging around, I'd chalk that up to being self-indulgent and reveling in his plunder, not because he lacks capacity for cruelty. A CM doesn't have to spend every single waking minute of their days being evil to be a CM. At least I don't think so. And yes, his being heinous as he possibly could be DOES matter and Bilbo's provoking him is NOT a sympathetic reason for his crimes. So ultimately I disagree. He was evil enough with the power and resources he had and the "it's his nature" argument doesn't hold water, nor does his lounging around make him a nice guy or redeemable in any sense. So I don't agree with you. Overseer80 (talk) 11:39, March 27, 2014 (UTC) I honestly can say that I argue in favor of Smaug being a Complete Monster as well. As the guy above me said, Smaug is arrogant and self-indulging which is why he decided to stay cooped up in the mountain with his treasure. Whenever he's menacing Bilbo, he takes sadistic glee when talking about how he slaughtered the people living around the mountain and how he drove Thorin and the other Dwarves out from their home. And like it's been said, his motive for burning down Laketown out of oure spite towards Bilbo certainly helps with making him qualify. NoxiousSludge (talk) 16:27, April 12, 2014 (UTC)NoxiousSludge Yes, definitely a CM. Smaug is a CM. As Overseer80 and NoxiousSludge have said, he's evil enough to be categorized in this way. Turn that "View source" into an "Edit" again because Smaug Is a complete monster! And I have more proof. According to the Extended Edition DVD, Smaug was a partner-in-crime with Sauron, not to mantion that they're BOTH extremely evil. After destroying Dale, Smaug destroys Laketown, not long before being killed off by Bard the Bowman. The categories I will add: Knight of Cerebus, Evil Genius, Partner-In-Crime, and more. ESPECIALLY a Complete Monster. by User:Misry6 on 10/21/2015 at 9:38 p.m. This has been warred over again and again and those categories have been deemed not to fit. Smaug is not a Monster and the category will not be re-added; he crosses the MEH once and that's not enough, and aside from that he's far too passive to count. Never mind the fact he has to stack up against figures like Glaurung, Lheu Brenin, Saruman, Ungoliant, and arguably the two dark lords (Sauron and Morgoth), among others. '' No fear,'' [[User_talk:Dreadnine|no fun. ''' ]] 04:39, October 22, 2015 (UTC) :I definitely agree with Dreadnine. In my opinion, Smaug is not enough to be a CM even if his MEH crossing is shocking. He might be a vile villain combined with greed, vileness and wrath, but he is not a CM. Please compared Smaug to Sauron, as the latter did a lot more crimes. Besides, the Middle-Earth has so many dangerous creatures, so Smaug is not really stand out.--NGC fan (talk) 13:14, October 23, 2015 (UTC)NGC fan I try. I tried to tell you, he IS a complete monster, but you wouldn't listen. Now what the heck is this? I AM TIRED OF HAVING TO ADD THE CATEGORY OVER AND OVER AGAIN. (grunts) And for oone thing: he's NOT passive; he's sadistic. Deadpool, I hope you watch the Hobbit trilogy again! THERE, YOU"LL FIND OUT THAT I'M RIGHT!!!!! He's twice as evil a passive monster will ever be! Ok whoever is doing this, just stop! Your gonna get blocked if you don't!Kevin125 (talk) 04:40, October 22, 2015 (UTC) Smaug was usually happy to leave the Middle Lands alone so long as they did not disturb him. Pigletisbacon 12:20 July 8, 2014 I'm not going to bother to continue this debate. Your insistence on caps-spamming doesn't help your point at all. The page is already locked; don't abuse the Monster category again, please. Thank you. [[User:Dreadnine| '' No fear,]] [[User_talk:Dreadnine|no fun. '' ]] 04:55, October 22, 2015 (UTC) I know this feels a bit outdated, but i might make a poll for whether he is pure evil or not. You're done with this page. I've had it. You are getting on my nerves. With users Overseer80 and NoxiousSludge, and several villains, including Indominus rex, Cecil Fredericks, Madame Gasket, Henry J. Waternoose III, and Smek, on my theory and my side, I can take you out. This debate will continue until there is enough evidence that he's truly a CM. You're out. Ok dreadnine just block this guy, he's not gonna stop! Also really? You know those two aren't exactly reliable right? Also they are just two people, so yeah also who do you think you are?Kevin125 (talk) 05:08, October 22, 2015 (UTC) Ignore him, Kevin. He's looking for attention. [[User:Dreadnine| '' No fear,]] [[User_talk:Dreadnine|no fun. '' ]] 05:29, October 22, 2015 (UTC) Sauron and I don't agree. He already knows that "No fear, no fun" is a lie. We have a bigger saying. "You cannot hide. I see you. There is no life in the Void. Only death." Me, NoxiousSludge, and Overseer80 all agree on one thing: Smaug IS a Complete Monster. All these evils of Middle-earth don't disqualify him. Smaug is bad enough. By Misry6. "No fear, no fun" is my signature. Stop taking it so seriously. [[User:Dreadnine| '' No fear,]] [[User_talk:Dreadnine|no fun. '' ]] 05:30, November 21, 2015 (UTC) Okay, it's accepted now, but don't take Smaug not a CM so seriously. The category's not being re-added. Now kindly stop posting on this page; if you're a troll, you've soaked up the attention for long enough. [[User:Dreadnine| '' No fear,]] [[User_talk:Dreadnine|no fun. '' ]] 06:25, November 25, 2015 (UTC) Alright dreadnine, but dude seriously just stopKevin125 (talk) 05:30, October 22, 2015 (UTC) Tertiary Antagonist Smaug is the tertiary antagonist. Sauron is the true main villain in the entire Hobbit trilogy. Smaug is a Murderer and Terrorist The categories Murderer,Terrorist and Homicidal are missing here. He attacks the town and killed many innocent people. smaug is pure evil In case anyone's gonna say that Smaug isn't pure evil, let me just say that it actually speaks for itself. Practically everyone single move that Smaug makes crosses the moral event horizon, and he feels no remorse, love, empathy, or anything. Looperreallyreallysucks (talk) 23:56, May 10, 2018 (UTC) *I disagree he is more than willing to leave people alone for an extremely long time if not indefinite provided they don't bother him, his species in series seems to naturally greedy which is his core motivation and not even sure I'd call him heinous enough. A Pure Evil needs to be constantly a danger or threat to the setting when they are able, Smaug isn't that considering he's got no problem leaving everyone alone after he got his kingdom where he mostly just sleeps in his treasure. Jester of chaos (talk) 00:11, May 11, 2018 (UTC)